GiorÂgos Gogos is a Greek dockÂworker and union leader from the Port of Piraeus. A memÂber of SYRIZA, he is active at the regional and union levÂels of the party and is engaged in local orgaÂnizÂing efforts in Piraeus, the large urban indusÂtrial area surÂroundÂing the port outÂside of Athens. Katy Fox-Hodess is a docÂtoral stuÂdent in SociÂolÂogy at the UniÂverÂsity of CalÂiÂforÂnia, BerkeÂley writÂing her disÂserÂtaÂtion on interÂnaÂtional solÂiÂdarÂity among dockÂworkÂers’ unions. She spoke with Gogos on JanÂuÂary 31 folÂlowÂing the recent elecÂtion in Greece
Katy Fox-Hodess: How have peoÂple in your comÂmuÂnity reacted to the elecÂtion results?
GiorÂgos Gogos: GenÂerÂally, it was accepted with great enthuÂsiÂasm by many peoÂple, not only by those who voted for SYRIZA but other peoÂple who traÂdiÂtionÂally belonged to other parÂties and couldn’t escape from those comÂmitÂments. EveryÂbody I think was sayÂing, ok, let’s see what this new route is like and we have to try, someÂhow, a new way of approachÂing the whole problem.
K: When you say other parÂties, you mean PASOK and the ComÂmuÂnist Party?
G: PASOK and New DemocÂracy, mostly. From the ComÂmuÂnist Party, anyÂway, I don’t have many acquainÂtances, but I think that peoÂple who don’t belong to the structure of the party, who are not memÂbers of the party, accept this elecÂtion result with relief. In the beginÂning, we can say there was a negÂaÂtive reacÂtion, they were quesÂtionÂing the posÂsiÂbilÂity of co-governing with ANEL, the IndeÂpenÂdent Greeks, that is actuÂally a popÂulist right-wing party, though all of their disÂcourse is actuÂally quite anti-Troika, anti-memorandum. But I think after the forÂmaÂtion of the new govÂernÂment, the new elected govÂernÂment, many peoÂple realÂize that there is going to have to be cooperÂaÂtion within the govÂernÂment. The new govÂernÂment has been quite coherÂent and we have the first announceÂments from sevÂeral minÂisÂters conÂfirmÂing to the peoÂple that the main guideÂlines of the pre-election proÂgram are going to be impleÂmented at once.
K: What has the reacÂtion been in the port?
G: In the port, we were really happy, espeÂcially after hearÂing the first announcements by the new MinÂisÂter of MarÂitime Affairs. He reconÂfirmed that the privaÂtiÂzaÂtion process of all ports, but espeÂcially the Port of Piraeus and the Port of ThessaÂloniki, will stop.
K: One of the first announceÂments SYRIZA made after the elecÂtion was about stopÂping the priÂvaÂtiÂzaÂtion of the ports. Why do you think SYRIZA has made this such a priÂorÂity and why is it imporÂtant to fight for pubÂlic ports?
G: You know we are sayÂing in the port that everyÂone who was against the dockÂworkÂers in Piraeus port lost power, lost the govÂernÂment, they were elimÂiÂnated, so don’t fight against us. Ok, so this is a very macho explaÂnaÂtion, it’s not politÂiÂcal. For SYRIZA, priÂvaÂtiÂzaÂtion in genÂeral is someÂthing that’s not acceptÂable. The priÂvaÂtiÂzaÂtion that was going on very, very quickly was the priÂvaÂtiÂzaÂtion of the ports, and espeÂcially the Port of Piraeus. So I think that it was symÂbolic, and at the same time, an imporÂtant mesÂsage, that we’re not going to priÂvaÂtize. And of course, it’s very imporÂtant that Piraeus port workÂers and dockÂworkÂers have shown their deterÂmiÂnaÂtion, their devoÂtion to defend the pubÂlic port.
First of all, it’s a strateÂgic point for a counÂtry such as Greece, not only because of the many islands that conÂnect the peoÂple livÂing there and travÂelÂing there, not only because it’s the main gate of ingoÂing and outÂgoÂing cargo and goods. It’s also because when a state-owned comÂpany passes to priÂvate investors, the priÂvate investors care only for their profÂits and nothÂing else. So the people’s transÂportaÂtion needs will not be served. Apart from this, it affects the sociÂety and the econÂomy in genÂeral. It was and it will be profÂitable. It didn’t have losses in any year over the past fifty years. And a govÂernÂment like SYRIZA needs profÂitable pubÂlic entiÂties so as to redisÂtribÂute the pubÂlic wealth. Apart from this, our jobs would be lost, our labor rights and the orgaÂniÂzaÂtion of our job would be chalÂlenged and in danÂger, and it’s affectÂing our famÂiÂlies, so we are fightÂing also for our jobs and for our children.
K: Are you optiÂmistic that SYRIZA will be sucÂcessÂful in this process of conÂfronting COSCO and the troika and stopÂping the process of port privatizations?
G: SYRIZA will be strong only if they will remain comÂmitÂted to the pre-elections program. In addiÂtion to this, they need the supÂport of the peoÂple and sociÂety. For examÂple, of course we are sure that they are going to have presÂsure from abroad, from China and from the EuroÂpean Union and from the troika and from memÂber states in Europe. But all this presÂsure will be less effecÂtive if peoÂple stand with the deciÂsions of the govÂernÂment. One of the first things that Alexis Tsipras said yesterday to [Eurogroup Chair] DijsÂselÂbloem was that he wants to do things differently than the peoÂple who were in power before him. He said he wants to folÂlow the comÂmitÂments that he made to the peoÂple. It’s imporÂtant to hear that from a leader, the Prime MinÂisÂter, to say that he will folÂlow the proÂgram that he showed to the peoÂple and was voted for. This way, they canÂnot reverse their plans or in case they have to reverse their plans, they will have to ask for the opinÂion of the peoÂple and the sociÂety first.
I have trust in my comÂrades in SYRIZA. And I have trust not only that they will be accountÂable but that they will folÂlow what they have been sayÂing. I have trust that they have received the mesÂsage from sociÂety, which says go do what you have told us you will do. Of course, we know that as a union, we have our autonÂomy, we are not going to folÂlow someÂthing that a memÂber of SYRIZA says or a minÂisÂter of SYRIZA says – we have a very healthy coopÂerÂaÂtion and an honÂest one.
K: Is it imporÂtant for the union and for the coaliÂtion in Piraeus to conÂtinue to orgaÂnize and be mobiÂlized to proÂvide presÂsure from below for SYRIZA to keep its promises?
G: Of course. OrgaÂniÂzaÂtion and mobiÂlizaÂtion of the union in genÂeral, and espeÂcially in a secÂtor like ours, is a necesÂsity and a preÂconÂdiÂtion for anyÂthing you want to do at any time. No matÂter which party’s in power, no matÂter what the deciÂsions are. Until now, all the deciÂsions have been negÂaÂtive for the unions – it’s the first time in Greece we face someÂthing pro-labor, anti-privatization and so on. But we still want to be mobiÂlized. We don’t want peoÂple to remain on their couches, but instead we want to be on alert in order to proÂmote our demands so that they will not disÂapÂpoint us. And we want to proÂmote our demands and the deciÂsions of the govÂernÂment that the European Union or other counÂtries do not accept and are presÂsurÂing the Greek government to back down on. And already we have started to have this disÂcusÂsion among ourÂselves. EveryÂbody was happy all this week, it was the first time we were laughÂing after the announceÂment of the new govÂernÂment, but at the same time, or the next day, we were startÂing to talk about it, to say, now we have a govÂernÂment that says no to priÂvaÂtiÂzaÂtion, but in case they are presÂsured by Europe to sacÂriÂfice the ports, what are we going to do? We’re going to stand outÂside of the door of the Maritime Affairs MinÂistry and our port, and we will conÂtinue our fight.
K: The same day that SYRIZA announced it would stop the port priÂvaÂtiÂzaÂtion process, they also announced that they would rehire the cleanÂers from the MinÂistry of Finance and thouÂsands of peoÂple who were illeÂgally fired from the pubÂlic secÂtor. What is the sigÂnifÂiÂcance of priÂorÂiÂtizÂing these decisions?
G: It’s very symÂbolic, first of all, because this group of women were very milÂiÂtant, very active, and very much present in every strugÂgle takÂing place in Athens. So it’s very symÂbolic and a very good examÂple, not in all senses because they made certain misÂtakes in my opinÂion, and we have some othÂers who can say a lot of things, but they still remain like heroes. But I don’t like to use the word hero because you put a hero over there and you forÂget him and you are doing bullÂshit on the other side. So they’re peoÂple like us, they were women like us and they were very devoted to their strugÂgle. So it’s very imporÂtant for SYRIZA to supÂport them and to solve their probÂlem. It encourÂages other unions to be this devoted.
K: What is the sigÂnifÂiÂcance of the elecÂtion for workÂers and unions in Greece in general?
G: It’s the highÂest moment of democÂracy. This is a moment in which all of us are called to choose who is going to repÂreÂsent us and supÂport and defend our rights and our posiÂtions. We are not afraid of elecÂtions. On the conÂtrary, I think Greek peoÂple should be asked more freÂquently. For examÂple, it is conÂstiÂtuÂtionÂally perÂmisÂsiÂble to have refÂerÂenÂdums, so I think the new govÂernÂment will use this process and will mobilize peoÂple in this way to be parÂticÂiÂpants and not an audiÂence. This is imporÂtant. It needs time. It’s not a matÂter that will change in one or two or five years. But if a left govÂernÂment can remain powÂerÂful for more than five years, for two govÂernÂmenÂtal cycles, and build strong founÂdaÂtions, it will change the our menÂtalÂity as citÂiÂzens. We believe in this because as a trade union, we use elecÂtions freÂquently, we have collecÂtive deciÂsion makÂing processes.
K: Do you believe SYRIZA will priÂorÂiÂtize reversÂing the anti-labor legÂisÂlaÂtion of the last govÂernÂment, which tarÂgeted colÂlecÂtive barÂgainÂing and unions?
G: It’s one of the first things they say they are going to cure. They are going to reverse all of these negÂaÂtive laws which preÂvent colÂlecÂtive barÂgainÂing and return all the laws that were proÂtecÂtive to the less powÂerÂful part of the marÂket, which is labor and not the employÂers. It’s a comÂmitÂment and I think it’s one of the first laws they are going to reverse.
K: What is your opinÂion on the alliance between SYRIZA and ANEL?
G: In the beginÂning, I was quite skepÂtiÂcal. But the majorÂity of 149 MP’s gives them the opporÂtuÂnity to have a role in this govÂernÂment. Greek sociÂety in genÂeral is not so proÂgresÂsive. A big perÂcentÂage of Greek sociÂety is quite conÂserÂvÂaÂtive, not only in its way of thinkÂing, in its way of actÂing, but in its way of approachÂing sevÂeral issues, for examÂple, sexÂual oriÂenÂtaÂtion or human rights conÂcernÂing immiÂgrants. These are issues that many Greek peoÂple are not in favor of. They are quite conÂserÂvÂaÂtive. The vast majorÂity of Greek peoÂple are not so reliÂgious, but quite attached to the traÂdiÂtion conÂnected to the OrthoÂdox church. The oath that the new Prime MinÂisÂter, Tsipras, gave was politÂiÂcal, with respect to the leader of the Greek church, sayÂing that I’m going to give a politÂiÂcal oath but also I want your good wishes for this govÂernÂment to go on. It sends a mesÂsage. So you need a conÂserÂvÂaÂtive party that can supÂport you in this strugÂgle, in the comÂmon fight against the memÂoÂranÂdum poliÂcies, and after that, I think the Greek peoÂple will realÂize that recÂogÂnizÂing, for examÂple, the marÂriage between LGBT peoÂple, it’s not cruÂcial, you’re not going to be affected, you’re not going to be infected, it’s a human right. So you are more powÂerÂful havÂing a conservative party in this and havÂing already some time, a year, six months in power, and havÂing shown that you believe in what you are sayÂing and you fight for it and you want to impleÂment it. It’s imporÂtant to have a conÂserÂvÂaÂtive audiÂence in such a govÂernÂment so as to transÂmit some ideas. It’s more clever, let’s say, to have them inside, and honÂest, in the sense that you can say to them, for examÂple, ok guys, we have a probÂlem with some thouÂsands of kids that are born here in Greece, their parents were citÂiÂzens of other counÂtries and they have no citÂiÂzenÂship, but they are Greeks, they are brought up here, they have been taught in Greek schools, they are our children’s friends, so we should give them citÂiÂzenÂship, they are Greek people.
K: So you are sayÂing that havÂing ANEL in the coaliÂtion forces SYRIZA to try to speak to and conÂvince peoÂple on the right?
G: Yes, Yes. And I think it’s the best vehiÂcle to minÂiÂmize conÂserÂvatism in Greece. Maybe what I’m sayÂing is too romanÂtic and has no politÂiÂcal explaÂnaÂtion, but it’s my perÂsonal impresÂsion. I’ve seen this in my union. Some conÂserÂvÂaÂtive peoÂple have seen memÂbers of our union, left guys, who are comÂmitÂted and hard-working, and through their examÂple, they are perÂsuaded that no matÂter if you left wing or right wing, when someÂbody is fightÂing for someÂthing that is right, and if they trust you more and they are conÂvinced but you voted for SYRIZA, it’s ok. If you want to make bread, you put in flour and water and you mix it together and after that you have bread. This process I think will take place in the govÂernÂment and will be expanded to society.
K: Is there not a risk that SYRIZA will move to the right?
G: No, not from ANEL. I don’t think there is this danÂger from ANEL being inside the govÂernÂment. If we will have this move, it will be from other agents outÂside of the governÂment, more powÂerÂful playÂers in this game, the state or big capÂiÂtalÂists – the whole sysÂtem, let’s say. But not from ANEL.
K: What are the biggest chalÂlenges or presÂsures SYRIZA will face to push its agenda?
G: First of all, if we leave the case of the port and priÂvaÂtiÂzaÂtions and all of that, this anti-privatization polÂicy will be the vehiÂcle for the troika to press us. For examÂple, if you don’t folÂlow our proÂgram, we’ll stop your liqÂuidÂity. The first thing they have to do is address the debt criÂsis at the EuroÂpean level. It’s not easy. There are sevÂeral artiÂcles this week, for examÂple, about how Prime MinÂisÂters MarÂiÂano Rajoy in Spain and Pedro PasÂsos Coehlo in PorÂtuÂgal, reject this proÂposal. They say it will be damÂagÂing for all of us and the marÂkets will punÂish us, just like what AntoÂnis SamaÂras, the forÂmer Prime MinÂisÂter, would say, for examÂple. But I think that if this cause is taken up by the peoÂple and the EuroÂpean social demoÂcÂraÂtic parÂties that still have some sigÂnifÂiÂcant part of left disÂcourse in them, I think that more alliances and more allies will be found. This is the first thing. Because the debt is not only stranÂgling us, it’s also pressÂing more healthy economies. GerÂmany itself has such probÂlems. It’s not obviÂous now, but sooner or later it will come. And on the other hand, for interÂnal affairs, I think they should start givÂing signs that the citÂiÂzens are the priÂorÂity, not the comÂpaÂnies. They should start, for examÂple, as I said, by ameÂlioÂratÂing labor laws, and also makÂing changes in the health and eduÂcaÂtion sysÂtem, and makÂing a seriÂous effort to tax big wealth. These will be signs to sociÂety and to the poorÂest part of the sociÂety that someÂthing has changed, that they’re not the same as the othÂers, that the rich are not untouchÂable and the rest of us will not be fucked over once again.
K: Do you believe that the coaliÂtion with ANEL will last?
G: I don’t know. It’s a big quesÂtion mark. I don’t think that this form of govÂernÂment will last much time. I don’t know if it’s going to be one year or two years but I don’t think it will last for four years. They are going to face seriÂous chalÂlenges in the near future. I put a deadÂline, let’s say, in the sumÂmer, when we’re going to face the first seriÂous probÂlem in payÂing back some of the debt. If we don’t have any alterÂnaÂtive resources for payÂing this money, I think we will have new elecÂtions. So SYRIZA has until that time to show to the peoÂple what the direcÂtion is, that it’s difÂferÂent than the preÂviÂous govÂernÂment, so they will reafÂfirm, maybe with betÂter results, the new government. ActuÂally, I wouldn’t like to see this coaliÂtion last for four years. I would like to see the left party get more powÂerÂful through this coaliÂtion in order to have a light at the end of the tunÂnel soon and to go to elecÂtions again with a greater percentage for SYRIZA, so it has an absolute majority.
K: To supÂport SYRIZA, in genÂeral, what should workÂers and unions in Greece be doing?
G: They should be more active and respond to the calls for diaÂlogue. There is a comÂmitÂment from SYRIZA’s side that no deciÂsion will be taken withÂout a diaÂlogue between the govÂernÂment and the affected or interÂested parÂties. So first of all we have to be workÂing harder to have proÂposÂals, so as to have someÂthing to say and not to simÂply say no or yes with obeÂdiÂence, but to conÂtinue to be critÂiÂcal. On the other hand, we have to start processes, proÂceÂdures, and iniÂtiaÂtives in order to realÂize we are not the only ones with a probÂlem, but next to us there are also peoÂple with more probÂlems or less probÂlems. This way we can have horÂiÂzonÂtal and verÂtiÂcal relaÂtions with other adjaÂcent institutions.
It’s not difÂfiÂcult for this to hapÂpen, espeÂcially in Piraeus, because we have the labor cenÂter. UnforÂtuÂnately, the power rests with the the ComÂmuÂnist Party link in trade unionÂism, and they’re not so coopÂerÂaÂtive. They not only have cerÂtain strucÂtures and disÂcourses, but they folÂlow cerÂtain direcÂtives from the party. And their intenÂtion is to get more power for the party instead of develÂopÂing a more coherÂent proÂgram and becomÂing closer to priÂvate workÂers. I think we have a lot of work ahead of us if we want to be conÂstrucÂtive and if we want to expand the idea of solÂiÂdarÂity and co-action. I think the days of each secÂtor fightÂing on their own are over. It’s not effecÂtive anymore. And in case SYRIZA does not do well and loses power, a more conÂserÂvÂaÂtive govÂernÂment will cerÂtainly come to power. So we need to make the most of this time, not only to change things for the betÂter, but in case we have negÂaÂtive results, to be more preÂpared to face the conÂserÂvÂaÂtivism that will come for sure. But this is the pessimistic view. We have a more optiÂmistic view, to be conÂstrucÂtive, draw up proposÂals, and make our self-criticism – why we didn’t sucÂceed as trade unions before, what things have to be changed within the strucÂtures and the processes to be more demoÂcÂraÂtic and less clienÂtelisÂtic. We have a lot to do.
K: How is the relaÂtionÂship between SYRIZA and the labor unions? Are there strong ties?
G: No, they don’t have strong conÂnecÂtions because actuÂally within the trade union strucÂtures, SYRIZA’s perÂcentÂages are the same as they were five years ago. So peoÂple from SYRIZA in trade unions are in the minorÂity. Although sociÂety has changed, due to clienÂtelism, perÂsonal conÂnecÂtions, and all these rotÂten sysÂtems, demoÂcÂraÂtic ways of breathÂing are not allowed. So SYRIZA in power is in a betÂter posiÂtion to put these processes in the front and cenÂter. But I don’t know how big the resisÂtance will be, espeÂcially from the ComÂmuÂnist side. Because, unforÂtuÂnately, the ComÂmuÂnist Party is part of this clienÂtelism and has espeÂcially non-democratic ways of holdÂing power within the unions. I’ve heard terÂriÂble stoÂries, and I know they’re not just stoÂries, about how unions that belong to the ComÂmuÂnist party use very undemocÂraÂtic means to keep their power.
K: In other words, the prinÂciÂple probÂlem is the strucÂture of the unions – they are clienÂtelisÂtic and not very demoÂcÂraÂtic – which makes it difÂfiÂcult for SYRIZA to gain a foothold in the unions?
G: They were very close to the parÂties that were in power. SYRIZA must not fall into the trap of using their power in govÂernÂment to sow the same seeds in this field. It must leave the trade unions alone to change themselves.
K: One critÂiÂcism of SYRIZA is that the party is domÂiÂnated by uniÂverÂsity intelÂlecÂtuÂals, not peoÂple from the union moveÂment – do you share this view?
G: It is more or less true. But as I told you, the probÂlem is that peoÂple in the unions who are memÂbers of SYRIZA are few in numÂber. And to be honÂest, perÂsonÂally speakÂing, I don’t proÂmote myself in SYRIZA as a trade unionÂist and in my trade union as a memÂber of SYRIZA. They are two difÂferÂent roles. I try to disÂtinÂguish and behave accordÂing to where I am. Of course, between these two roles, the priÂorÂity for me is to be a dockÂworker and to proÂtect as much as I can the rights of my colÂleagues and my job. But apart from this, I need some politÂiÂcal tools to make this hapÂpen. I think there will be fewer uniÂverÂsity guys and more trade unionÂists over time. But also I have to tell you that trade unionÂism in Greece is quite devalued.
K: There is a negÂaÂtive opinÂion of trade unions?
G: Yes, because of the very big conÂnecÂtion between the parÂties of New Democracy and PASOK with the trade unions. I think I told you before that many presÂiÂdents of the ConÂfedÂerÂaÂtion of Greek WorkÂers, after the end of their term, became minÂisÂters, withÂout explainÂing or havÂing any process open to the peoÂple or open to the unions. It was just a very perÂsonal deciÂsion, passÂing from one role to the other. So all these behavÂiors creÂated probÂlems and peoÂple were leavÂing the unions. What we’re tryÂing to do in our union is to fight this. Of course we have few things in comÂmon with such behavÂiors. On the conÂtrary, we have very open approaches, we try to mobiÂlize peoÂple, we try to involve new memÂbers and young memÂbers in decision makÂing in the union, so while we might not one of the best, I think we have a very good approach to this. And we think that unionÂism is a tool to have comÂmon demands and to fight for our comÂmon demands. It should not be seen as only a step for one perÂson to become more powÂerÂful or more domÂiÂnant. WhoÂever holds these posiÂtions has to serve for the good of everyÂbody, not to serve their perÂsonal interests.
K: The Piraeus B elecÂtoral disÂtrict near the port had among the strongest supÂport for SYRIZA in the elecÂtions in 2012 and in 2015. Why has there been such strong supÂport there?
G: GenÂerÂally, in the poorÂest areas, SYRIZA got the biggest perÂcentÂages. The vote was quite class oriÂented. In Piraeus, and in the wider area of Piraeus, I think the seriousÂness of the approach of SYRIZA, the sinÂcere interÂvenÂtion, you know, all the activÂiÂties of the last three years, have awarded SYRIZA with this perÂcentÂage of the vote.
K: You have been very active in orgaÂnizÂing with the party in Piraeus. What kinds of activÂiÂties has SYRIZA been involved in there?
G: SolÂiÂdarÂity for All in Piraeus, an orgaÂniÂzaÂtion supÂported mainly by SYRIZA, serves daily meals. There are also the “solÂiÂdarÂity lessons”, free classes for stuÂdents who canÂnot afford to have priÂvate lessons for the uniÂverÂsity exams, as well as social pharÂmaÂcies and social docÂtors, checkÂing peoÂple for free and preÂscribÂing and so on. These are immeÂdiÂate actions for the sociÂety done withÂout checkÂing people’s staÂtus, unlike Golden Dawn. Every vulÂnerÂaÂble perÂson is accepted. It’s a healthy interÂvenÂtion in sociÂety. Of course we are tryÂing to tell peoÂple that they should mobiÂlize and collectively demand their rights. But it’s not to make them be a memÂber of SYRIZA or to work for SYRIZA and so on.
There is also a coorÂdiÂnatÂing body of anti-fascists in Piraeus and we are in it. We don’t have our own camÂpaigns. We try to supÂport the comÂmon strugÂgles, the anti-fascist strugÂgles. On the conÂtrary, the ComÂmuÂnist Party is unforÂtuÂnately out of this, with their own interÂvenÂtion, which is very low, I have to tell you. They don’t make freÂquent protests, and so on, although they were a tarÂget and they are still a tarÂget of fasÂcists. But they are very afraid to get involved in a comÂmon strugÂgle. On the other hand, we have very good relaÂtions with peoÂple from ANTARSYA, espeÂcially in anti-fascist strugÂgles, despite our difÂferÂences. I don’t think there is an anti-fascist moveÂment or manÂiÂfesÂtaÂtion, in Piraeus at least, that we do not parÂticÂiÂpate in.
K: supÂport for Golden Dawn is less than it was one, two, or three years ago. Why do you think this is?
G: In my opinÂion, they should be even less powÂerÂful, they should lose more than 5% of the perÂcentÂage. UnforÂtuÂnately, they kept 6.5% or someÂthing like this. It’s a big perÂcentÂage if you conÂsider that their leadÂerÂship is in prison, that they don’t have the finanÂcial resources they used to have, and, most imporÂtantly, that it is now pubÂlicly well-known that they are engaged in crimÂiÂnal activÂiÂties. So it’s an unforÂtuÂnate result and it’s quite painful to have 6,000 or so of your neighÂbors vote for Golden Dawn. I expect from SYRIZA first of all to put them on trial, to give them a fair trial, and at the same time, from the perÂspecÂtive of being in govÂernÂment, to proÂmote anti-fascism and anti-racism so as to start changÂing the menÂtalÂity of those peoÂple who are now votÂing for Golden Dawn, to change their oriÂenÂtaÂtion and to be clear with sociÂety about their crimÂiÂnal face.
K: As a union leader and a SYRIZA memÂber, when you speak to memÂbers of your own union or to workÂers in Piraeus in genÂeral who aren’t memÂbers or supÂportÂers of SYRIZA, what kinds of arguÂments do peoÂple make and how do you respond and try to orgaÂnize them?
G: First of all, they are afraid that they are going to act like the preÂviÂous govÂernÂments. They say now that they are not going to priÂvaÂtize the port and finally they will do it. So these are the main arguÂments I hear. What I say honÂestly is that I don’t believe they will do it, but in case they are presÂsured or they change their mind, I’m sure that they are going to fight from a betÂter posiÂtion. We are going to have for sure a more demoÂcÂraÂtic govÂernÂment. I’m cerÂtain we are going to take part in an open dialogue, and anyÂway, not only our abilÂity to fight but our responÂsiÂbilÂity to fight is here. And we are going to be against anyÂone, even if it’s SYRIZA in power, who undermines our rights and our jobs. It’s clear.
K: Are there other strateÂgic secÂtors that you would like to see pass to pubÂlic ownership?
G: Energy comÂpaÂnies, for sure, I don’t have to menÂtion the health sysÂtem and educaÂtion sysÂtem, uniÂverÂsiÂties, trains and roads, should be taken back from subÂconÂtracÂtors that have taken a very big amount of money. For examÂple, I travÂeled to my vilÂlage which is 350 km from Athens recently durÂing the ChristÂmas holÂiÂdays and we paid 45 euros for the tolls, for the roads that were paid to be conÂstructed by the state. I want to see my dad but I don’t want to pay 45 euros to go and see him. So for all these secÂtors, I think they should remain public.
K: What is your opinÂion of the arguÂments made by SYRIZA figÂures like Costas LapavitÂsas in favor of Greece leavÂing the Eurozone?
G: PerÂsonÂally, I think the euro as a curÂrency is a means, it’s not the objecÂtive. It’s the means to have an econÂomy. What is an econÂomy? An econÂomy is ok if it serves peoÂple and proÂvides a cerÂtain level of secuÂrity to the peoÂple – jobs, health sysÂtems, eduÂcaÂtion. So in those terms, the euro is a tool. Apart from this, it is a politÂiÂcal issue. I would preÂfer to see what chances we have inside the EuroÂzone. And after that, for sure inside the EuroÂpean Union, which is someÂthing difÂferÂent. And after that if they insist, if they say, you have to keep getÂting fucked over, you have to be sacÂriÂficed so as to remain in the EuroÂzone, no. I think that if that moment comes, we should go to a refÂerÂenÂdum and decide altoÂgether. And from LapavitÂsas’ side, I was folÂlowÂing him durÂing 2011 and 2012 – for two years, I was folÂlowÂing his speeches. I was quite open to hearÂing such opinÂions but I was not perÂsuaded that they have a clear answer espeÂcially for the first period of a transÂfer from the euro to a local curÂrency. They didn’t conÂvince me that they have someÂthing conÂcrete to proÂpose to the peoÂple for those first critÂiÂcal six months of tranÂsiÂtion. And you know, our sociÂety is not trained or eduÂcated to sufÂfer under such terms. For examÂple, if you leave the euro, the iPhone will be three or four times more expenÂsive. I don’t care. I don’t give a damn. But many peoÂple give a damn about some items that they don’t even have the power to buy in euros. So I’m ready to wait for gasoÂline and to do my part and not to demand more but I know many guys around me that would be happy to simÂply take their share and their family’s share for the month. So I think we’re not trained well enough to conÂfront such a danger.
K: There have been some critÂiÂcisms that SYRIZA has moved toward perÂsonÂalÂisÂtic leadÂerÂship and is becomÂing too focused on indiÂvidÂual politiÂcians – do you share this view?
G: It’s becomÂing too presÂiÂdenÂtial, yes. That’s true. I’m one of these guys that are critÂiÂcizÂing Tsipras although I recÂogÂnize that he is very charisÂmatic, very clever, very effiÂcient. He can repÂreÂsent our core ideas and all this that we call SYRIZA. Unfortunately, the last six months, we have seen that the party proÂceÂdures were not respected and some deciÂsions were taken with a small group around the presÂiÂdent. This is a probÂlem. This is a probÂlem which we have addressed within the organs of the party. It’s someÂthing that we canÂnot preÂvent now, now that he is Prime MinÂisÂter. This kind of thing will hapÂpen more and more, I think. But I hope that the colÂlecÂtive reacÂtions, the colÂlecÂtive interÂvenÂtions will ameÂlioÂrate this. And of course I’m not saying that he’s like GeorÂgios PapanÂdreou or SamaÂras. He’s a left guy. And he’s not going to act in such a way. But ok, within the left specÂtrum, he has made some mistakes – not respectÂing the organs of the party – and he was tryÂing espeÂcially durÂing the pre-election period to put things as far back as posÂsiÂble so as to have less colÂlecÂtive proÂceÂdures. I’m also critÂiÂcal of this. But I don’t know if it’s perÂsonal decisions or peoÂple surÂroundÂing him. For examÂple, there are one or two guys that are are not so clever, in my opinÂion, that don’t have such a colÂlecÂtive way of actÂing, though I don’t want to minÂiÂmize his responÂsiÂbilÂiÂties. I preÂfer to give responÂsiÂbilÂity to a team, a party, a union. That’s why I’m accusÂing the team of leadÂerÂship. It’s not just one man.
K: Do you parÂticÂiÂpate in a politÂiÂcal curÂrent within SYRIZA?
G: I was parÂticÂiÂpatÂing in the meetÂings of AKOA, the RenewÂing ComÂmuÂnist Ecological Left, a EuroÂcomÂmuÂnist party and one of the foundÂing memÂbers of SYRIZA. Inside SYRIZA, AKOA, with two smaller groups, creÂated ANASA, which in Greek means breathe. ANASA became an offiÂcial politÂiÂcal curÂrent. It doesn’t have a strucÂture, there is an open diaÂlogue between ANASA and some guys from the majority of the party, meanÂing close to Tsipras and close to the president’s group. They’re critÂiÂcal and they creÂated what is called the Group of Fifty-Three, fifty-three memÂbers of the cenÂtral comÂmitÂtee. So this Group of Fifty-Three, it’s getÂting bigÂger and bigÂger, it’s not fifty-three anyÂmore, it’s more. We don’t have a very strict strucÂture. ActuÂally it’s a group for diaÂlogue that is tryÂing to proÂmote colÂlecÂtivÂity within the party, tryÂing to preÂvent facÂtionÂalÂism, tryÂing to preÂvent the leadÂerÂship from makÂing deciÂsions withÂout being approved by the colÂlecÂtive, and tryÂing to preÂvent the presÂiÂdenÂtial leaderÂship group from makÂing misÂtakes and takÂing deciÂsions out of the hands of the party.
K: What can worker moveÂments in genÂeral learn from this experience?
G: This topic we could talk about for some hours. Look, the motto that SYRIZA used durÂing the pre-election period was that hope is comÂing. So now we feel that hope has come and we think it’s a great opporÂtuÂnity for the workÂing class to start breathÂing. In my perÂsonal opinÂion, it’s a period of responÂsiÂbilÂity for all of us to go beyond ourÂselves, not to have the first demand be for our union, for ourÂselves, but to try to develop more colÂlecÂtive demands, more funÂdaÂmenÂtal demands, and to start the hard work of posÂiÂtive critÂiÂcism, of seriÂous impact proÂposÂals. Because I think now we are fightÂing from a betÂter posiÂtion, but we are still fightÂing. It doesn’t mean that just because we have a very charisÂmatic Prime MinÂisÂter with good minÂisÂters that this is the end of the story, no. I’ve know these guys for many years. They are guys like ourselves. So I can imagÂine that if I were in that posiÂtion how imporÂtant it could be for me to have the supÂport of the peoÂple. I would feel more secure havÂing peoÂple back me. Not to folÂlow them and to say yes to everyÂthing they say, no, but to supÂport the right deciÂsions, to keep our presÂence and to keep our sigÂnaÂture being active in every deciÂsion they take. It’s really seriÂous and I feel more responÂsiÂbilÂity because as General SecÂreÂtary of the union, it’s a lot of work for me to mobiÂlize peoÂple, havÂing fulfilled their main demand, meanÂing that the port is not going to be sold but I want the state to own it. It’s difÂfiÂcult. But it’s the only way we’re going to sucÂceed, knowÂing that the proÂgram is not someÂthing revÂoÂluÂtionÂary. It’s a clear social demoÂcÂraÂtic proÂgram. But in order to achieve a socialÂist sociÂety, we need some time so as to pass through a real social demoÂcÂraÂtic path with socialÂism as the end goal.
K: What is the sigÂnifÂiÂcance of the elecÂtion for workÂers outÂside of Greece?
G: I have to tell you that I have received from our friends who are dockÂworkÂers in Europe many, many mesÂsages, conÂgratÂuÂlaÂtions, very optiÂmistic mesÂsages. They are waitÂing, at least the peoÂple I am in conÂtact with, and they are very close to my mentalÂity, they were very happy. And they really want to see this govÂernÂment succeed, because they feel that this will trigÂger changes in this direcÂtion in their countries. I do believe that the govÂernÂmenÂtal change in Greece will have a snowÂball effect.
K: What can peoÂple outÂside of Greece do to supÂport the politÂiÂcal process in Greece?
G: First of all, they should not lisÂten to the mainÂstream mass media and should try to find alterÂnaÂtive inforÂmaÂtion. It’s really imporÂtant. I’m folÂlowÂing what the mass media in GerÂmany has been sayÂing these past two or three days and it’s really too biased. They are against the new govÂernÂment and they don’t tell the truth. The secÂond thing is that they should show their solÂiÂdarÂity actively. For examÂple, I know that today (JanuÂary 31) PODEMOS are havÂing a big manÂiÂfesÂtaÂtion in Madrid, so as to critÂiÂcize Rajoy for his stateÂments at the EuroÂpean meetÂing about EuroÂpean debt. These kinds of actions are really encourÂagÂing the Greek peoÂple and encourÂagÂing Greece’s new elected govÂernÂment to go on. To EuroÂpeans, I have to say that we have to remain together and to remain together as nations, not as comÂpaÂnies or as multiÂnaÂtionÂals. SYRIZA is another Greek experÂiÂment. Greece was an experÂiÂment in ausÂterÂity for the past five years and now I think it will be an experÂiÂment in prosperity.
31 January 2015